Berty invites you all to take on the issue of the elderly and the infirm (1234 hits)
Category: Science & EnvironmentalRating: 0.82 on 81 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Berty (View user info) at 2008-01-31 08:24:35 EST
There's a lot of debate going on in the UK about how we care for the elderly and infirm. The current system revolves around Carers, family or friends who essentially quit their jobs to look after the person. There are various benefits and allowances that Carers can claim, and there are also certain initiatives being spearheaded by the government to get disabled people into work.
Issues people have with the way things are include the miserable Carer's allowance, a lack of clarity regarding assessment for state support (both financial and other support), community support for the elderly and the pittance paid to professional social support workers. There's also a whole bunch of things being discussed about the procedures and specifics of the whole system, but it seems inappropriate to go into depth on them here. You can find more in-depth synopsis of the debates on various BBC and government websites.
Now a lot of you won't be aware of this, but Uber plays host to a number of Carers from various different nations. Also I'm sure many of you have infirm relatives, know the people who care for them and are aware of the issues that they face. As my own father races towards the inevitable ruin of years the issue is of growing importance to me so I'd like to ask you about your thoughts, experiences and ideas regarding care for the infirm.
We'll take Logan's Run style disposal of the elderly and infirm as having been given and noted for the sake of brevity.
Before I open the floor to debate I'll briefly talk about some of my own experience.
I have a cousin*. She is disabled and married to a disabled chap. Both have discussed their potential willingness to work, and also the desire of their friends, but have highlighted that the benefit they receive is such that it isn't necessary. I should note that whilst they are wheelchair bound they don't have a Carer as such, they live semi-independently. My cousin's Mother looks after my Uncle who is himself frail and in need of full-time care hence the scale of their benefit.
Whilst I am not convinced that wielding a stick at the problem of getting disabled people into work will do anything but cause atrocious suffering, it'd certainly free up care for people who really will never be able to work. Professionally though I am all too aware that the burden for these 'working cripples' will be placed upon the employers. That'll mean fewer pay rises for able bodied folk.
In addition I'd like to clear up that, contrary to popular belief, I am not myself disabled. It was merely a joke made about a year and a half ago regarding my ethnic origin.
*complicated hand gesture*
Brown power.
*- For the record it should be noted I have dozens, perhaps even hundreds of cousins. My family is most prolific.
User Reviews
Submitted by orphelia (user info) at 2008-02-14 21:02:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
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Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-02-13 11:36:10 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
Who's the scottish woman around here then? Can you remember?
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TechnoRatty
Submitted by JoeyG (user info) at 2008-02-02 18:13:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 21:07:45 GMT (#)
Ranking: 0
Joey, I don't agree with you. Going to France is fuck cheap and our benefit system doesn't put people in poverty because putting people in poverty is a bad thing
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That's exactly my point - they don't put people in benefit on purpose, (although a lot deserve it), more so they make unemployment a more attractive option through handouts.
Don't get me wrong, I fully believe that benefits are a wonderful thing that helps many families who are less fortunate.
But you know as well as I do that half the people receiving benefit are blagging it to fuck.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-02-01 12:36:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 for the image...
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-02-01 07:33:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yes and no locksly. Mainly no to be honest.
I've heard people say that money isn't worth the paper it's printed on, which is obvious nonsense because money IS the paper it's printed on, but that's all it is.
I appreciate that this is a difficult concept to get your head around after being programmed for so long to believe that these bits of metal and paper are somehow intrinsically valuable, just think about it.
You asked why I don't simply work for food and board, the answer is that I do, and I presume that so do you.
I don't work for money, few people do. I work for food and a place to live and internet access and clothes and all sorts of crap almost none of which the people who give me money are in a position to provide, so they give me money instead.
And I pass this money on to someone else who gives me a CD for it, because he doesn't particularly want £2 worth of a haircut from me (for example, I'm not a hairdresser in reality), but he knows someone who will fix his car in excahnge for that money because they don't really want any of his CDs but will accept his money so they can swap it for a nice juicy steak wrapped in bacon with little bits of stilton melted on top and fried potato skins in gravy on the....I'm getting distracted, the point is that the money has no value. The haircut is valuable, as is the CD, the repair of the car, and the food. The money isn't.
Money IS barter: tangified*
Money is how a car mechanic can buy a steak from someone who has no car, he can recoup the value of his repair work for the steak.
Think of it as an IOU if ya like.....hell what am I saying, cash is quite literally an IOU....he has done something of value and so is owed something of value in return, and this debt is represented in an easy to carry and widely accepted paper format, the use of which is a lot easier than trying to find someone whose car has broken down who happens to have some steak on them.
The concept of money is a (far from perfect but nonetheless highly successful) attempt to record** and simplify the transfer of things of value.
Now I'm hungry.
*not a real word
**no not like that you fool
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2008-02-01 02:30:48 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
We all know you're not disabled Berty.
The proper phrase is "Differently Able."
Submitted by locksly (user info) at 2008-01-31 19:14:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:37:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
that's not really how it works Berty, they're a drain as soon as they start costing more than they're earning...they may have 3 million in the bank but if they're slowly using that up and not earning more then they're a drain on the system as a whole, remember that money isn't actually worth anything.
That 3 million isn't an asset, it's evidence that they have in the past done things of value (assuming for the sake of argument that they earnt that cash doing something useful), but it isn't of any actual value in itself....the money is representative to what they've contributed to society in the past, it's not a contribution to society in itself (leaving aside the positive effects of that 3 million ebing available for investment via the banking system).
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You are a fucking idiot. Anytime money is spent its contributing to an economy, the fact someone has 3million in deposits, means the bank can lend that out on multiples and earn interest which again, keeps people employed and earns money for the bank and its shareholders... Don't go on with the money has no value bullshit... Its a tired old argument. If money had no value why do you bother working? why don't you just work for food or board or barter your way around the world.
Money is a tangible liquid asset, backed by the respective government. If your money becomes worthless due to massive inflation or a revolution which dissolves the government, you'll have a lot more to worry about than your money being worthless because the country would be in mass riot.
Therefore in the world that we know it money has obvious value
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2008-01-31 18:15:47 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Domestically speaking, I agree with what scourge said and I think there should be more care and respect in general given to the elderly. My father, who was an RN at one time and often saw mistreatment firsthand, said to me as a child- "I won't ask much from you, Valerie, but please, please, never put me in a nursing home."
I never will.
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2008-01-31 18:12:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
http://womennewsnetwork.net/2007/11/05/nothing-to-go-back-to-the-fate-of-the-widows-of-vrindavan-india/
If I could envision myself being willing and able to leave my family and friends for a humanitarian cause, this one might be it.
These women have raised families and made valuable contributions to society, once their husbands die, they're deemed worthless and rejected by their own families and end up lonely and destitute and aren't allowed to remarry. It sickens me.
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2008-01-31 17:57:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
those who suggest euthanasis of the old and infirm are really stretching ridiculously far in their attempts at appearing shocking or controversial.
i think the value that we collectively received from these people, the elderly that is, is worth any burden they create as they enter the end stages of their lives. we only see as far as we do because we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.
in china, in the past, elders were revered. they were brought into the homes of their children so they could live the remainder of their lives with support and care form those who loved them. seems to me that the hispanic and black community(with the obvious exception of the gangster-thug-shitheel portions of these communities, but that's another story altogether) tends to regard their elders with the same view. these are people who have lived a lifetime and can offer us wisdom that we are otherwise never going to be privy to. white people don't do this.
that's partt of the problem. we have lost the concept of 'elders', now they are just old people.
if my parents are ever infirm and need care on a daily basis, i will gladly accept them into my home.
i could go on at length, but i'm trying to use the lappy nub and keyboard and the bastard is giving me shit.
i'll close with a simple 'Kill Whitey'
Submitted by ChaosJester (user info) at 2008-01-31 17:44:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Don't really have much of an opinion on this subject as I don't plan on being alive much past 30.
I still love you though.
Does that count?
Submitted by netimportant (user info) at 2008-01-31 17:42:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yes, especially since I've never actually met someone from the UK and I'm just basing my disapproval on British accents and British "comedy."
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 17:27:29 EST (#)
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Submitted by netimportant (user info) at 2008-01-31 17:00:10 EST (#)
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I thought you were from Australia. There goes my fantasy of having sex with you on a sand dune and pulling your long luxurious hair while you shout "Throw another shrimp on the barbie, yeah mate!"
I don't like people from the UK. Now I have to rework all my stereotypes.
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Awww, you'd do that for me?
Submitted by netimportant (user info) at 2008-01-31 17:00:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I thought you were from Australia. There goes my fantasy of having sex with you on a sand dune and pulling your long luxurious hair while you shout "Throw another shrimp on the barbie, yeah mate!"
I don't like people from the UK. Now I have to rework all my stereotypes.
Submitted by orphelia (user info) at 2008-01-31 16:40:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
bragging, below. haha
Submitted by orphelia (user info) at 2008-01-31 16:34:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
We just spent 2 nights in Paris and spent nearly 1k.
Plus one week in St Tropez and several weeks in Port Grimaud would have forced us to remortgage the house if it hadn't been paid for by wealthy relatives.
I have never done anything 'on the cheap' (except my make up) so I suppose I wouldn't know.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 16:29:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You just fly to Charles de Gaul and get a bus or a train, Pheely. It's really not very expensive.
For all we know she had a tidy arse that she rented out for room and board.
Submitted by orphelia (user info) at 2008-01-31 16:23:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Going to Framce is fuck cheap?
Wrong. You must have been to Calais.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 16:07:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
That's the thing TTOM, they didn't smoke anything. Sobreity can do very weird things to one's perception. The most tripped out people are ones who've never done any drugs.
Just look at the amnish. Or the swiss. Or Indoninja.
Joey, I don't agree with you. Going to France is fuck cheap and our benefit system doesn't put people in poverty because putting people in poverty is a bad thing.
Submitted by The_taste_of_Monkeys (user info) at 2008-01-31 15:50:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Carousel! CAROUSEL!
What were they smoking when they wrote that masterpiece, one can only imagine.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 15:49:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
My God Bubba. I think I agree with you.
Indo; that is the most retarded and irrelevant comment you've ever left on one of my posts. A random incident that has no baring on either the care system or its future. I would ask that you don't use my posts as a vehicle to expound your racial hatred, but I'm sure you will anyway.
Brown Power
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2008-01-31 15:14:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Axolotl (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:50:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
At 17 I don't know about age...but I had better end up being a cool grandfather with stories and liquor, still able to live out a proper life with minimal senility. If not, I'd rather just die.
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Ax, I felt the same at 17. Your opinion will likely change when you add 41 years to your age and are as old as I.
Forensic has seen the seedy side of old age, and I have had enough older relatives in homes to agree with her.
Indo: "Antidotal" stories? Buahahahahahhahaaaaa!! (anecdotal).
Many comments here are based on money. Is your fucking money more important than the life of a person? If so, I am really sorry for you. . .
Submitted by JoeyG (user info) at 2008-01-31 15:06:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
It's not the status quo that fucks me off, per se.
It's the people who take advantage of the carers benefit that get under my skin. Across the road, there is a woman who looks after her 'disabled' father.
Just the other day, said disabled father strolled into the local pub, ambling on his walking stick. After 2 pints of Old Speckled Hen, the walking stick was promptly forgotten, and left at his table while he happily played darts and practically skipped to the bar when the drinks were running low. This is very common for him.
I'm not saying disabled people aren't allowed to enjoy life, but where was his 'carer' while this was going on?
Enjoying a weekend away to a vineyard in the South of France, that's where. Fully funded by the taxpayer.
The idea of a carers allowance is so you can care for the individual for whom you claim this benefit - because they need the support to care for someone who isn't able to look after themselves. I'm no benefit expert, but it's clear in some cases that the 'disabled' person is quite capable of looking after number one.
Where it is justified, I believe that a carers allowance is a marvellous thing, one of the things that as a nation seperates us from the less civilised countries of the world. It enables people to provide all the care necessary to another individual, in order to improve their quality of life.
But some people just take the piss out of an overtly stressed system that was designed to help the people that really do need it.
But that's enough rant for one day. Did I just use the words 'per se' in an Uber review?
I think that's proof enough that someone needs to look after me.
</mytwocents>
Submitted by shandythedog (user info) at 2008-01-31 14:53:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
also of course need reduction in meaningless red tape
Submitted by shandythedog (user info) at 2008-01-31 14:52:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
small children, dogs, gardens, and music and singing
where the elderly are not mad in a dangerous or unpleasant way, they can actually contribute and assist with childcare. childcare centres should have strong links with aged care facilities
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 14:31:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"A few weeks ago I heard about a women who couldn't get treatment because her muslim doctor wouldn't look at an unvieled woman." Not in this country mate
"And how someone had to wait six weeks for life saving surgery because the NHS was so mismanaged." As opposed to not getting the surgery ever?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2008-01-31 14:26:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:01:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
A few weeks ago as part of this ongoing debate I heard an American woman talking about how she had been put in the terrible position of having to divorce her husband, whom she dearly loved, in order to qualify for medicaid because otherwise she got no support from the state. They were well off before he suffered an accident, a head injury that caused some brain damage, and they'd been left derelict by the lack of support from the state.
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A few weeks ago I heard about a women who couldn't get treatment because her muslim doctor wouldn't look at an unvieled woman. And how someone had to wait six weeks for life saving surgery because the NHS was so mismanaged.
Antidotal stories are hardly a solid basis for judging a system.
As far as dreading growing old I plan on retiring when 55 and relaxing the rest of my life. the only reason I try and stay in shape now is so I can truly enjoy partying with no responsibilities as an old man.
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 14:14:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
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Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2008-01-31 19:06:17 GMT (#)
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Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:25:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
no offense intended, I just think we should build a big fuck off wall around the usa and shoot anyone who tries to get out......or possibly some sort of therapy and rehabilitation instead of shooting....
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Believe me, a lot of us here want that wall as well. Only we'll be shooting anyone who tries to come in.
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haha, two points Jack.
one....someone already beat you to that comment,
two....I've read enough on Uber to know that you're originally Canadian (I think, if not ignore this), that's xenophobia australian style you've got there.
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2008-01-31 14:06:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:25:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
no offense intended, I just think we should build a big fuck off wall around the usa and shoot anyone who tries to get out......or possibly some sort of therapy and rehabilitation instead of shooting....
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Believe me, a lot of us here want that wall as well. Only we'll be shooting anyone who tries to come in.
Submitted by EmissionImpossible (user info) at 2008-01-31 13:40:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
i like shlongy and he's infirm or is that in form? i dunno
Submitted by EkO (user info) at 2008-01-31 13:33:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Charm bullets.
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 13:00:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Well that's where you hope Parliamentarians do a good job and you get well thought out legislation on this subject os wheelies get in and do sit down jobs but blind people that would need the whole system reworked around them don't and work as....translators, advisors etc.
Unfortunately with the comfortable government majority of the past decade the quality of legislation has been decidedly sub par.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 12:45:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Icarus you are SO right! Currently the rate of unemployment in the UK is ridiculously low, so low in fact that we are forced to employ wallies because decent people already have jobs.
Disabled people in work though... I dunno. I can't really see too much of a problem with it, really, I mean I sit around all day long so unless your disability is a lack of arms then I guess it's no biggy but there's all kinds of disability.
What if I was blind though? I'd need a special computer. A special telephone. My coworkers would have to dive for cover when I come barraling down the corridor, waving my mad stick in front of me, on my way to the kitchen to scold myself with boiling water in the pursuit of coffee. What would happen with all the existing Personnel files? Would they all have to be converted into brail?
Submitted by HurtByTheSun (user info) at 2008-01-31 12:38:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
It may be different in England, but up here I'm sure there are different 'degrees' if you like, of being a carer. Primary Caregiver just means you help out in a crisis, whereas Full Caregiver (I believe is the title) means you basically look after your saggy, gassy old relative as a job, like you said.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 12:30:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by HurtByTheSun (user info) at 2008-01-31 12:17:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Since you know I punched a man in a wheelchair once, I have nothing constructive to add.
However, and this may amaze you, I am the 'Primary Caregiver' for my alcoholic grandfather as I live the closest to him. I have only had to do something for him once, and receive no benefits.
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I wouldn't have thought you would have. I think you'd only recieve benefit if you did care for him a set number of hours a week.
Honestly I don't know the specifics. A bit crap of me to have posted this without looking it up really. Fuck it, I'm too pretty to do research.
I am certain the crip was proper asking for it, some of them can be right wankers.
Submitted by icarus1987 (user info) at 2008-01-31 12:20:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I believe, back in the 90's when the economy was booming, we had agencies in the US that assisted disabled individuals in getting jobs. With the shit labor market, and the economy circling around the toilet bowl, I don't think we have those anymore. I'm not sure what state the Brit economy is in, but I would imagine you'd see the same thing. Those sorts of ideas are great when you're iin the gravy, but once the economy gets a little unstable, they're typically the first to go.
Submitted by HurtByTheSun (user info) at 2008-01-31 12:17:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Since you know I punched a man in a wheelchair once, I have nothing constructive to add.
However, and this may amaze you, I am the 'Primary Caregiver' for my alcoholic grandfather as I live the closest to him. I have only had to do something for him once, and receive no benefits.
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 12:01:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm also aware that saying 'that's a tricky one' isn't particularly helpful
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:59:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Money isn't valuable, it's merely exchangable for things that are. If it helps, imagine an apocalyptic scenario where people use cash to light fires or possibly for insulation.
Money isn't worth anything in itself, otherwise we could just print loads of it and live like kings, money is only worth anything because it is accepted as a certificate of something of actual value.
An old very rich person may have contributed a lot to society in the past, which is how they got rich.....but they're a drain now. (assuming we're talking about old people who can't work and need care).
My thoughts on care is that it's fucking expensive to get decent, and it always will be (as long as it's done by humans) because of the amount of person-effort* it takes to provide it, and no matter how a society should choose to represent that person-effort it's always going to be 'a lot'. How that effort is arranged and paid for, is a tricky one.
*I'm aware that this isn't a real term, but you know what I mean.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:45:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
It's money BB. Money that will, at some point, be spent by somebody. Either it goes back to the state through tax or it goes to private enterprise.
That may take a while because of the baby boomers and the demographic of fuddy duddies being a bit top heavy, but it'll happen eventually.
Actually does it make any difference? They're still there at the end of the day, the old people I mean. Do you have an opinion about what should be done with them? Any thoughts on care generally?
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:40:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
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Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 16:31:06 GMT (#)
Ranking: 0
Americans are clever folks BB. They just aren't socialists. Don't flash your ignorance at their culture by lambasting them for their belief in individual independance.
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It was just a joke Berty, a wall wouldn't work anyway, they've got too many planes.
Submitted by Fartman (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:39:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I have to disagree with BB on one minor point.
I just think we should build a big fuck off wall around the usa and shoot anyone who tries to get IN!
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:37:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
that's not really how it works Berty, they're a drain as soon as they start costing more than they're earning...they may have 3 million in the bank but if they're slowly using that up and not earning more then they're a drain on the system as a whole, remember that money isn't actually worth anything.
That 3 million isn't an asset, it's evidence that they have in the past done things of value (assuming for the sake of argument that they earnt that cash doing something useful), but it isn't of any actual value in itself....the money is representative to what they've contributed to society in the past, it's not a contribution to society in itself (leaving aside the positive effects of that 3 million ebing available for investment via the banking system).
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:31:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Americans are clever folks BB. They just aren't socialists. Don't flash your ignorance at their culture by lambasting them for their belief in individual independance.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:29:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Bollocks are old people a drain on capitalist society! They're a fucking vast deposit of wealth!
It is essential that elderly finances are managed correctly to ensure the flow goes into the pockets of their survivors, the pockets of the business and the pockets of the state. Think about it for just a second: these are people who have come to the end of a life of constant work and being paid. They have assets, they have savings, they have offspring.
We need to look after old people. We need to look after the disabled as well, now more than ever because we live in a world where technology allows more and more people to contribute.
They only become a burden if the system fails. If the system is in place, be it private or public, to provide care at an affordable and sustainable level it results in better quality of life and prosperity for EVERYONE. Not just big business. Not just for the rich.
I'm surprised you people don't think about this sort of thing more. You could change the system for the better you know...
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:25:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
no offense intended, I just think we should build a big fuck off wall around the usa and shoot anyone who tries to get out......or possibly some sort of therapy and rehabilitation instead of shooting....
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:21:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
hey thanks beefcake
Submitted by BritishBeef (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:18:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Americans are fucked up.
The elderly will always be a drain in a capitalist society, potentially the situation may stabalise as (most) people will have elderly relatives that need care paying for and wages/lifestyles of young people will adjust to reflect this. Maybe.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:05:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I think its apples and oranges really.
People that are old now grew up in a system and thought process that the Gov will take care of them.
People that are younger now are seeing that that was a bullshit lie and are preparing in other ways.
I'll trade you 10 extra years right now for the 10 at the end of my life.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 11:01:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I know this isn't the most uplifting subject matter I've chosen here but... well, wow.
I expected some whinging about 'the state of youth today' or something with respect to how the elderly are treated but Jesus.
A few weeks ago as part of this ongoing debate I heard an American woman talking about how she had been put in the terrible position of having to divorce her husband, whom she dearly loved, in order to qualify for medicaid because otherwise she got no support from the state. They were well off before he suffered an accident, a head injury that caused some brain damage, and they'd been left derelict by the lack of support from the state.
It made me pretty angry to be honest.
I just figured you guys were unaware of how bad it was but the reality is that you've got a sort of death cult thing going on. It's, well, it really is rather scary.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:56:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:42:37 EST (#)
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My God. You Americans have such a dark view of later life.
Seriously, it's really, really weird just how grim you lot all are about later life. Don't any of you look forward to retirement?
Personally I'm looking forward to old age. It'll give me more time to sit in a chair doing nothing but play computer games, watch TV, chat shit at people on the internet and jerk off.
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Perhaps its not our dark view of later life but your British view of 'man I can't till things get good when...'
here and now should be the best time of your life.
Submitted by Axolotl (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:50:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
At 17 I don't know about age...but I had better end up being a cool grandfather with stories and liquor, still able to live out a proper life with minimal senility. If not, I'd rather just die.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:42:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
My God. You Americans have such a dark view of later life.
Seriously, it's really, really weird just how grim you lot all are about later life. Don't any of you look forward to retirement?
Personally I'm looking forward to old age. It'll give me more time to sit in a chair doing nothing but play computer games, watch TV, chat shit at people on the internet and jerk off.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:39:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:38:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I'm involved in enough issues, thanks.
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Sounds pregnant with hidden meaning.
Makes you think.
Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:38:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I'm involved in enough issues, thanks.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:29:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:55:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
It'd mean higher taxes though Indo.
Do different states have different policies for disabled and elderly care? If so, what are they?
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I am ok for higher taxes to help pay the health care for people who work, and for kids. I am would rather fluch my money down the toilet than pay for the healthcare of people who don't work.
All states (and this is just the way I understand it, could be wrong) have homes they will take in any old people. It isn't free and if you own a house car etc you have to give it to the state in return for permanent care. There arer also a lot of subsidized old folks homes that are more assisted living. You have a small apt a few nurses on staff, and a community of old people around. I think that is probably a better environement for old people because they have people to talk to (as long as they are still slightly mobile and hearing isn't completely gone). I don't think grandma sitting alone on the couch all day is good for her psyche.
I only have one grandfather left and he has said many times he would rather die in his house than go to a home. My parents have shared that sentiment. I think they have a very dark picture of what an old folks home is (and in a lot of cases they are right) but there are some that do provide good care and allow you freedom. When it comes to care for old people I don;t really have a strong opinion because I really don't know what is best.
Submitted by joedaddy (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:16:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
i want to make it to 62 so i can get at least one check from the government for doing nothing else but just being me
receiving value based on nothing else but the fact that you still exist is really nice
yea!, i crossed the finish line of productive life
Pay Me!
Submitted by firefly (user info) at 2008-01-31 10:14:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:55:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
It'd mean higher taxes though Indo.
Do different states have different policies for disabled and elderly care? If so, what are they?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:50:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:32:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
It's not really part of what I want to talk about here though, I'd rather focus on your thoughts for the consequences of what would essentially be a fully privatised healthcare system and what I said about poverty, the rich/poor divide and the general, nihilistic overtones.
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A fully privitized healthcare system would lower the level of care for people who work hard to get good care.
I think anyone (including their family) with a full time job should be covered by the state if the job doesn't cover, i think children should be covered. screw everyone else.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:42:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I wish we had a Dutch Uberuser. I may make it my summer mission to recruit one.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:41:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yeah, it's pretty dark FG. There's a lot more to infirmity than that though.
What if you never develop alzheimers but develop parkinsons? With care and support you could live a very full and happy life surrounded by friends and family. What do you think of that?
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:41:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
i don't have much of an opinion on what you are pointing me towards. I'm essentially a 'step up or step aside' type. You get what you want and need because you earn it.
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:35:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Berty, I would rather go out on my own terms than become an incontinent, bedridden, demented shell of a human.
Why linger? I've worked in healthcare many years and the reality of a slow decline into death is monsterous. Take a walk around a nursing home sometime and observe the quality of life most of those people have.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:32:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:17:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
why do you automatically assume that symbiotic would mean we have to follow the same path...why couldn't it mean that our individual paths do not infringe upon one another. The bird that perch upon the alligators do not all of a sudden begin eating wildebeasts but both the bird and the alligator offer something mutually beneficial to one another
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It probably will. It'll probably be something we'll be able to turn on and off. Feel free to check out some of the research they're doing in cybernetics.
It's not really part of what I want to talk about here though, I'd rather focus on your thoughts for the consequences of what would essentially be a fully privatised healthcare system and what I said about poverty, the rich/poor divide and the general, nihilistic overtones.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:29:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Besides the financial pinch which everyone usually focuses on, the psychological and emotional havoc brought on is sometimes worse.
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This is an aspect of it I really wanted to get some information on. Caring is hard.
Forensic, if there was more provision for your declining years would you feel more optimistic or is it more the real consequences of alzheimers that put the willies up you?
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:17:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
why do you automatically assume that symbiotic would mean we have to follow the same path...why couldn't it mean that our individual paths do not infringe upon one another. The bird that perch upon the alligators do not all of a sudden begin eating wildebeasts but both the bird and the alligator offer something mutually beneficial to one another
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:16:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I helped my parents care for my grandmother who had Alzheimer's. She lived in their home and between the 3 of us, we somehow managed to care for her for 3 years. I wrote about it humorously here http://www.ubersite.com/m/76304.
Here in the States, there really isn't any help available to caregivers. We finally were able to get hospice in the last few months of Grandmother's life. At that point though, she was bedridden and completely out of it, verging on a vegetative state.
Besides the financial pinch which everyone usually focuses on, the psychological and emotional havoc brought on is sometimes worse.
Let's see, my mother developed severe clinical depression. My father was angry all the time because he had to watch his wife get depressed and then develop health problems. I was exhausted and angry all the time because I was helping care for Grandmother, started graduate school, working full time, and weathering the death blow to my (then) marriage.
Grandmother who had always been a gentle woman, became very violent when she developed Alzheimer's. I remember trying to give her a bath and getting sucker punched in the face. If you don't think old women can hit hard, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Three years this went on. Just when we were resigned to having to put her into a care facility, she had another stroke and slipped into semi-consciousness and was bedridden. That was when we finally were able to get hospice.
This whole thing taught me a valuable lesson. When I become elderly and if/when I start to deteriorate or lose my mind, I plan to suicide.
It is the only logical and sane decision to make. Especially in my case. I refuse to marry again, I do not have children, and I am an only child. There is no one to help me when my time comes so therefore I shall go out on my terms, a lethal narcotic cocktail.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:14:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Why does the symbiotic nature seem beneficial to you? What's so great about everyone following the same path? Both seem pretty stifling to me.
Actually, in all fairness, the interconectivity thing is something that makes me think about the elderly. You see, isolation and loneliness are serious problems with getting old. As you say, you're looking to abandon your mother because of neccesity. I wonder what technology can provide for lonely people across the board? That's a bit of a different topic to this though, so I'll turn my back on idle speculation.
So to conclude; you believe in the current US system of minimal care and support for the elderly and infirm, leaving it up to every private citizen how much care their loved ones recieve. It's a perfectly reasonable stance to take, afterall any solution needs to be paid for. As people live longer though, how do you think this will impact society? Are you concerned that it will increase poverty and widen the gap between rich and poor to 16th century european standards?
Submitted by lungfish (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:12:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
My mom told me to put her on a big slab of ice and push her out to sea when she gets too old.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:09:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:51:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You could argue that the current system working in America, where Carers are forced to use up all of their savings and equity so that they're poverty stricken enough to be eligable for Medicaid, is very similar to the African plains. Instead of being swallowed by lions though they're swallowed by debt and crushing despair.
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If someones grandfather is sick you don't need to slip into poverty to pay for their operation.
I am reminded of the recent democrat poster child for the child insurance policy. Her parents were pulling down several hundred thousand from their business but chose not to insure their child so when she got sick they got screwed. I feel bad for the kid and am glad the govt bailed her out, but fuck her parents.
I feel bad for children who get sick, but 99.9% of adults who do and don't get adequate care are in that position because they are idiots.
Society shouldn't take care of everyone, actually the govt sahouldn't take care of everyone. I have no problem with a individual or group that wants to spring for some lazy bastard who never had a job, but I don't want to foot the bill for it. This isn't because of lack of compassion, it is because of common sense. People keep getting bailed out from situations they put themselves in and they never learn consequences. Didn't the UK just cross the over 50% of kids are born out of wedlock line? I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I don't think it should have a social stigma, but most people doing that aren't mature successful individuals who decide they are ready to raise kids alone. It is kids who have no sense of responsibility and no understanding of the consequences of their actions. These kids will mostly grow up to be yobs, and in that type of family unit, who is going to be the carer?
that went a little off topic.
Submitted by Ducky (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:08:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
We have a program called THEO...those who are mentally 'incapable' are sent out to volunteer at various businesses, and everytime they go, they're given 5 dollars. I think they are decidedly getting screwed, but have been informed that they like it (not by them of course). I remember one in particular...a really large guy who would corner me and talk about his 'swimmers build' and when he didn't think anyone was looking he'd move all the security cameras around. If it weren't for him though, I wouldn't know what dolmades were, so I suppose there is something good in everything. I was also at the supermarket the other day and couldn't get to the checkout because one of the stocking boys was sitting in the aisle banging his head against the metal railing and crying because he had been sent to clean up a box of spaghetti noodles that had fallen onto the floor but didn't know how. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but as people gawked and stepped around him, I had an overwhelming urge to give him a hug.
This reply only marginally connects to your post Berty, and for that I apologize.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 09:05:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Also...is this what we should really be focusing on when California is unveiling 24 hour a day pot dispensing machines?
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UG5J0O1&show_article=1&catnum=0
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:59:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Agreed but both societies had characteristics of value worth taking on. The Borg's symbiotic relationship with one another shows great promise and the Necromongers (thank you for the name...one of those things I couldn't fit in my brain for fear of losing something else) adherence to a code seemed constructive. Although they would have to be moderated exercises, both offer points that we do not focus enough on in our current society.
Old people are a fearful burden. My mother has not saved a penny in her life and has been on disability for the last 15 years. This means that one day she will be a financial burden on me because she does not have the foresight to plan. My conundrum now is whether or not to forcefully distance myself now, in a plan to avert my responsibility or to accept my fate and pay some societally driven debt.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:57:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Danger_Ranger (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:53:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
erm....how old is old exactly, like 42? <runs finger across calendar> hang on let's make that 43.
btw I'm sorry you're a crippled paki. you could still fight in the kashmir like from a trench, well a shallow one so you could see over the top. or man a gunnery position, provided the recoil didn't impede your wheelchair access. you know once you got ejected from that seat those gunnery guys sit on. and there would have to be a ramp. AMANDLA.
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Your compassion is the warmth at the mouth of my tunnel. Thank you old man.
Just kidding. 43 isn't particularly old. Now 44... THAT'S old!
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:55:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"Sure emotions are what stop us right now...we don't kill the retarded babies because it's not socially acceptable"
You know who else wanted to kill retarted babies?
You sicko nazi.
that is whay I am all for pre-natal tests so you can kill them when they are embryo's.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:54:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Also many backwards societies have killed off their infirm. This failiure to look after the vulnerable held them back because we are all vulnerable at some point in our lives. Theoretically the optimum society is flexible, adaptable, compassionate and can impose its might effectivly.
Submitted by Danger_Ranger (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:53:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
erm....how old is old exactly, like 42? <runs finger across calendar> hang on let's make that 43.
btw I'm sorry you're a crippled paki. you could still fight in the kashmir like from a trench, well a shallow one so you could see over the top. or man a gunnery position, provided the recoil didn't impede your wheelchair access. you know once you got ejected from that seat those gunnery guys sit on. and there would have to be a ramp. AMANDLA.
Submitted by Brdn_Nkd (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:52:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
muddy's point on the weakening of the herd makes me think of douglas adam's proposed view of a degenrating society evolving into a mass of telephone sanitizers, hair dressers, security gaurds and management consultants, funny image really but somewhat poignant (i know i can't spell fuck off) in that as the herd weakens and the middle fills with more less desireable members it is the whole that suffers.
this may not have made any sense. if that is so I will rule it because of the noted lack of sleep last night. two hours hardly carries the day.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:51:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You could argue that the current system working in America, where Carers are forced to use up all of their savings and equity so that they're poverty stricken enough to be eligable for Medicaid, is very similar to the African plains. Instead of being swallowed by lions though they're swallowed by debt and crushing despair.
If I remember rightly, the Necromongers were a primarily Aztec/Roman Catholic style society who occaisonally went on great splurges of conquest (or pillaging to be more precise) because their society was fundamentally unsustainable. The Borg on the other hand were a commune where the people were rendered into tools. Both suffered from rigidity and were, for all their power, vulnerable to collapse. Such is often the intended design of 'baddie empires'.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:41:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
i think you can tell that i received a phone call somewhere close to the last 3 sentences there.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-01-31 08:39:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
As I drove the hour and a half drive to work this morning my mind lent itself to thinking about society and specifically what societies work in the most efficient manner and then how could we copy said society within our own to form a more mutually beneficial existence.
I decided that the most cohesive societies are probably those that exist in nature such as the African Plains or a rain forest. You seen more times than not, on the plains, when the tiger kills and eats the gazelle he is not killing and eating the fastest, spriest, most intelligent gazelle...he is killing the gazelle that is lame, handicapped or slower than the rest thus preventing the lame from reproducing with the lame and creating the super lame and thus weakening the herd as a whole.
Now I don't truly believe that our society is psychologically ready to move in such a direction but I do find the idea interesting. Sure emotions are what stop us right now...we don't kill the retarded babies because it's not socially acceptable, we don't kill the old because of some inherent feeling of debt to them but given time could we adapt to those changes?
I support that Alien societies such as the Borg and whoever those guys from The Chronicles of Riddick do and in my opinion those are two glimpses into a much more cohesive and prosperous society than that in which we live.